I dont think Ive revealed much of anything on my views for you to make such a statement. Alcoholics cannot be helped and wont be helped if they dont want it. Im not giving him a pass on any abusive behavior. My heart goes out to you and your family, Deb. R.C. You cannot change your past, nor can I, nor can Rcjr. For the record, I said above I dont know where I stand on this. Again, 1 Cor. You cannot reason with them because they quite literally cannot think straight. But I have not seen anyone say, Kick them out of the church! One that would intervene when a pastor went this rogue? So I was only saying what the Bible says. He gave several steps to be taken in dealing with a professed believer who is living a life of rebellion against God. Single Women in the Church: Valued orNot? Sure your time at Cambridge may have helped, and an innate analytic thinking style never hurts, but I also see the spiritual gift of seeing through the b.s. I am sorry for what you have been through. Barbara advocated that people with substance abuse problems be kicked out of the church. Velour, I said haha about the typo which the authors of this post had inadvertently made in the text of their post. To the best of my knowledge she does not have training in the subject of alcoholism. I have had plastic surgery three times. Velour wrote: One way or another. New TWW post. I see this all the time too. I feel everyone involved( church, family, job should ethically help a person reach bottom. Sproul Jr.s abuses of power, spiritual abuse, and excommunications and shunnings of people. Because DUIs are manly. First off, there are multiple Presbyterian denominations (Presbyterian denoting the form of government, not the theology, although most claim some degree of Reformed). I believe that the church, as church, needs to stay out of it. I did not use the word divorce. Go back and read what I said. Not sure I would quite go this far (God is the only that can really say this) but RC2 certainly has denied Gods power that Paul wrote about in II Tim 3:5. The other individual was an executive at a corporation (think Sr. Vice President). Even if they were a woman. I doubt it. Nonsense. Velour wrote: Often it is tried multiple times. Look at the fruit. I think that was what Barbara was in part advocating for up thread. But we do know what RC Sproul teaches, and it is very damaging. was hurt, and has seen others hurt (including whole families and children), by R.C. Some here believe that people with addictions should be kicked out of the church. So behind the times.). Sproul Jr. was arrested for driving under the influence and seemed to want use this as another defense for Jr. And I agree with #3 the kicker is, does HE want treatment? Remember too, that Paul also confronts the church when they do not welcome the repentant brother back. Sproul, Jr. to capitalize on his father's recent death and pull the heartstrings of those who admired his father is inappropriate. I forgot to mention above, that the person being excommunicated is not present at the excommunication, because usually theyve left the church by that point. No excuses for it, ever. It was never a put down, and the first time I heard it used there was by the recovering alcoholics. We use cookies to ensure that we give you the best experience on our website. I take Barbara and what she stated. Velour has been advocate for many hurting people here on this blog, offering prayer lists, & reminding people to give, if they can, to help those in need on TWW, also giving of her own resources. Many resources already exist and are perfectly fine. Christian support group, made headlines in The Milpitas Post , etc, etc. My DSMIV refers to substance related disorders, general alcohol abuse, alcohol dependence, etc. im sorry this is happening, dee. RC Jr is all about covenant theology. What does it say of the covenant when all that is necessary to be a covenant member is youve been baptized as an infant but you can go on sinning like the devil with no remorse for your wickedness? But to take that info and post it here? I have no problem with alcohol use by people who arent alcoholics and are responsible about it. For myself, since I do not know the other persons circumstances, I have no plans to undercut what someone says by alleging that they appear to have been hurt in some way. I am not against treatment, and Barbara did not say her opinion, so until she specifies, we cannot assume. An avid Steelers and Pirates fan, sports were a big part of his life. She just soaked up the love in the very back and left each time. I had already read your first comment about Barbara and codependency. @ Velour: 1 Corinthians 5:11-13. I weary, honestly I do, of you constantly finding the negative in things and never being able to cite people who you know who have benefited from outside help: 12-Step programs, in-patient treatment programs, therapy, psychiatry, etc. Nobody should pretend, or be told by his friends, that he can hold a prominent role in the body of Christ whilst drunk. A visitation will be held Thursday, March 11, 2023, from 10:00 am - 12:00 pm with the Celebration of Life to begin immediately following at 12:00 pm Sprowl. From Dees original article, which seems a long time ago now: Since he pled guilty to a felony, there is no question that Sproul is an alcoholic and needs serious counseling. Why do so many people not realize they are doing what Paul refers to here in II Cor 11 19-21: For you, being so wise, tolerate the foolish gladly. I guess maybe thats how this crazy high drinking starts, but imagine drinking a case or two of beer in a day? I didnt know about his second marriage. The best place for him to go for his probation is an in-patient treatment facility for alcoholism (and whatever else his problems are that his intake uncovers). Sadly, too many churches disapprove of love and kindness, or cherry pick who is deserving. accrue great personal financial gain from donors, or From the church folks, I knew, it was dont bother us for the most part. Your post seems not to understand this, but if I have misinterpreted you, please correct me. We are called in the Bible to many other things, including loving one another, bearing each others burdens, than simply kicking people out who arent like us. https://rachelheldevans.com/blog/ask-a-recovering-alcopholic-response-heather-kopp, Alkies drink because thats what Alkies do. This Wikipedia article covers things like the Ashley Madison scandal and his defrocking. Lots more is known about addictions these days. But bum-hood is not gender specific. The course was on the person and work of Christ. I have always qualified my comments with the fact that the church should seek professional help in how to deal with him and NOT handle it themselves. Were all (finally) in agreement that the man needs treatment. I am opposed to hauling out the hurting people argument when and if it is an incorrect application of the idea for several reasons. Thank you for explaining your editorial views about the word codependent. If their Dad is a hard drinker selfish enough to drink and drive with them in the car, then theyll have probably seen a huge amount of other poor behaviours, including him not being able to act as a functional adult for them when their Mum & then their sister died. It has been unopened for a month now, waiting for the opportune time to celebrate. RC Jr was also addicted to tobacco, in the form of an even nastier habit, chewing, but eventually gave it up. And he doesnt strike me as a would-be follower, so hed have to start another church and lead it in a sober way, and with his record of installing yes-men to advise him in his former churches, the outlook just does not seem terribly optimistic, to be realistic. . We can do better. I wore a wig to school for about 6 months until my hair grew out enough that I wasnt ashamed of how I looked. Julie Anne Smith, at Spiritual Sounding Board, has written a number of article on him, including accusations that he allegedly believes in wife spanking. @ okrapod: Church attendance wont cure much of anything, but the people of the church should support one another through thick and thin. they have no religious trappings and baggage. I was always scared stiff riding with him, literally praying all the way home, and I didnt even know the Lord then. Yes it is. Maybe his/her story lies hidden in those barbs, and they are the only way this person can express themselves at this time? But to take that info and post it here? The thought makes my stomach turn, in part because it is tied to membership covenants. His mother died on the same day that his son RC Jr was born, on July 1, 1965 (obituary says July 3, 1965). This is not cool. @ Max: First off, I am not in a position of authority in a church, such as a pastoral position, so I dont see this as being relevant to me as it is for someone such as Sproul Jr who works as a preacher. and fails to get the help he needs . This just goes to show what can happen when you have related people working in a ministry like this. I believe it. Several of my friends in high school were killed by drunk drivers. Sr. CAN cut off the paychecks. Right. After a total of 35 years I got entirely out of clinical and went into what the licensure people call administrative which is a wastebasket term for non-clinical and did that for 15 years. You and I differ on this, and I see no agreement between us on the issue of what is the rightful place of the church in such matters. We could not see how brainwashed we had been until we had gained some distance, time, and perspective. http://www.al-anon.alateen.org/. Try Highborn Heir to the Iron Throne of House Sproul.. Yes,?, no?, I dont know ? If you think that is hateful, your gripe is with the Bible not with me. We have already covered this multiple times. This truck had lap belts, which Im pretty sure we werent using. The recovering alcoholics that I know who work good sobriety programs (men and women alike) have ditched many of their old ways. @ refugee: I dont doubt any of the bad things that people claim that R.C. She can run her blog how she likes. And what about all of the other people in the pews who watch that go downwho have problems? Purge the evil person from among you.. Odds are remote that RC Jr will ever go, but the CR program can be extremely helpful to family members. Barbara Roberts, to the best of my understanding, has no education about addiction treatment, its prevalence in the church, and the multi-pronged approaches that should be taken in getting people help. Menu. That he should get treatment; and @ Max: Youve posted several comments about this and never mentioned that Sproul 2s church should get him into treatment for alcoholism (and whatever else ails him). Miracles happen. and for their family who need help dealing with an alcoholic. And yes, Dark Ages applies to how the church mishandled each one of these situations. I just dont know any. Mark my words, it will happen. What was it like in my Patriarchal home, you ask? H.A. As I understand it RC Sproul Jr. is a Calvinist just like his father and thus hold to TULIP., According to the P in TULIP they believe in the perseverance of the saints. This basically states that if one is a true believer or as they put it selected by God for salvation or in their term unconditional election this person will not backslide etc. Drinking and driving is SO DANGEROUS! It is a gift. I have studied and truly believe and understand the disease/treatment model for addictions. And I'm sure you didn't mean 'Alcoholism is an excuse to drink' I'm pretty sure you meant something like "Alcoholics use tragedy as an excuse to drink. I have no doubt that it wasnt the first time by any means that R.C. Sproul Jr.s excommunication. If she were an unbeliever it wouldnt matter. ), are out of line. discoveries. I believe God gave me a second chance at life, and I am so grateful! If I have said something that has caused you harm, please let me know. If nothing else, theyll get a breather. I am a broken, wounded woman, who happens to have different people in my life who cut, starve, purge, overeat, get drunk, medicate with R/X drugs, smoke pot, work themselves ragged, overspend, in hope to silence the agony of depression, intense anxiety, raging self-contempt, hopeless despair, excruciating shame, and (false) guilt. I, too, am very disappointed with the black hole into which this thread has disappeared. Im wondering what it means for people like me who are members of SBC churches that are not (yet) Calvinistic. Yet at the same time he treats his own children with total disregard for their safety, as though their lives had no value. Barbara wrote a pretty nasty response to me and H.U.G. So far, nobody has mentioned Jr.s recent second marriage. It has its uses because social pressure can be brought to bear from time to time, and you do know whether to let your kids go play over at so and sos house (not if Daddy is a drunk, for instance and keeping with this conversation) and it does get out who (married) was seen with whom (not a spouse) and what sweet young thing got into the car with whom after school after being forbidden to do that. Please stop advocating for his children? Albert Mohler is a Social Justice Warrior, make no mistake about it. It never came as most of them immediately started looking for the next shiny thing. Says that even now, when he sees a half-full glass of wine or beer left over at a restaurant, he has to fight down the urge to run over, grab the glass, and chug the remainder.). Instead she said ha ha and discussed kicking him out of the church, complete with scripture verses to justify the deed. According to Spinderella, the church governing body was aware of this issuefor many years. 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